I refuse to believe that the entire planets best idea of the day is JavaScript.

There isn’t a day that goes by where I stumble into some random blog post, comment, remark, argument that involves JavaScript lately. It’s as if the entire quagmire of its existence is trying to ambush me with wave after wave of interpretation of why it’s important… i’m under JavaScript siege and now it’s time to go all Die Hard on it.

Here’s my notes

* Plugins were evil, JavaScript is the web’s future.
Plugins made a strong point to the interwebs, it said loudly “Hey browser’s stop trying to hijack developers to your greedy needs and if you want to sit around waiting for a committee to make a decision, fine, but me.. i’m going to give that guy over there HD porn…”

Fact is products like Java, Flash and Silverlight (the “evil three”) were the service pack the web needed, it needed to prove the point that developers aren’t getting their fill of API  / multimedia needs with the slow latency filled migration patterns we (sadly) still have today. It wasn’t until Silverlight and Flash punched each other to death and in turn created this competitive annoyance in the market both externally & internally – that is – internally inside Microsoft it reminded the Windows team that “plugins” could very well hijack the beloved desktop SDK’s if their pace is left unchecked (cannibalizing Windows potential offerings). Externally it also reminded the web that browsers haven’t being doing their jobs, the fact that these two brands duke it out so publicly was the fresh reminder “oh by the way browser, what the hell are you actually doing!”.

Google was the disruptor in that equation as well, Firefox made a good run at trying to keep rising with the demand tide but it wasn’t until Google got its hands in the mix that we started to see a change. Not only did they push the JavaScript angle loudly than any other company but they also baited Microsoft IE Team constantly to meet their needs, it was actually a beautiful thing to see how they worked that team like a puppet via the whole “You need to focus on fixing JavaScript runtime perf levels”.

So plugins are evil? without them you’d probably be still hacking away at some crappy codec or trying to find more hacks to get around memory issues in browser(s) – or worse – writing Java Applets (probably extreme).

* JavaScript is different than it was, its awesome!
Yeah, i’m calling bullshit. Majority of the frameworks today exist to abstract you from focusing on writing actual JavaScript because whatever reason. When you have a JavaScript framework as being the excuse as to why a language should be considered then that’s probably your first clue we’re dealing with a dumb ass response to a problem that needs attention.

Some might argue “well that’s the power of JavaScript, you can write frameworks to solve problems” which to me rides along the same logic as how painters in the old days use to make their own oil paints in order to paint… today you squeeze it out of a tube and you’re now focused on painting less about sourcing various ingredients to make “red”. Abstraction is fine if you are looking to allow a developer to feed instructions into a compiler that then gets distilled into another language (cross compile etc). I simply raise the bullshit flag when that same concept isn’t applied at the compiler but is instead this extra memory footprint at the actual runtime instance itself. As now you’re just putting extra layers of ductape over the corpse that which is JavaScript in order to hide its inherit stink.

* Yeah but JavaScript is what we have today, so we should just deal with it
You can’t really argue this point beyond “yeah but I’m overweight and I can’t stop eating, so just let me die of a horrible death”. I hate mediocrity with a passion and I find anyone who compromises with JavaScript as a solution to a problem they know at the deep core as being a bad idea to be “enablers”. If you are that person and you’re writing JavaScript to pay the bills, cool, but you’re also not helping the industry and if anything you feed the whole ecosystem with more crap to deem “acceptable”.

* Stop using JavaScript isn’t an option, we just have to wait and see what’s next
Which brings me to my next train of thought – what the fuck is taking so long with ECMA6 or whatever its replacement. At what point do we declare fail on these “committees” and rally behind the idea that this shit has to stop taking so stupidly long (are they meeting every 2 years? are they even still alive…are the 90 and need time to watch Matlock before energising the base around their decisions???).  TypeScript for me is “fine, lets just get on with it” or I’m open to anything that hints at being not freaking JavaScript.. i’ll write python in the client if I have to, but get this stuff sorted out and stop wading it down by this agonising death by democracy attitude. Break the web, its broken anyway at least this will be the event that freaks everyone out long enough to come up with a better idea than what we have today.

I refuse to believe that the entire planets best idea of the day is “JavaScript” (aka ECMA3). If that’s the case then the various education systems are teaching the wrong classes.

I have been doing this thing you kids call today “web development” since 1995, I’ve watched the entire internet move at an agnosing slow pace. I got hands on with VRML and watched that crash dive, I got hands on with Adobe Flash which then lead me to Adobe Flex and then later I as most know got hands on in Silverlight/WPF. I keep chasing the idea or potential that we as a human race have, in that we know that multimedia is a medium that can convey so much importance at a pace that’s exciting – when the technology platform allows it.

Today, by keeping JavaScript as being the “best” of the entire plugin wars as a solution, you have to be an absolute idiot if you believe that’s a step forward. It’s steps backwards not just small steps, but large steps.. steps that will take us another 3-5 years to recover from again. Look at the historical patterns around Prescriptive vs Descriptive design languages…

JavaScript is the digital age’s version of herpes, every time you think its gone a new outbreak occurs – DHTML, AJAX, “HTML5”

 

 

 

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  • András Velvárt

    Spot on!

  • Diego Guidi

    “Fact is products like Java, Flash and Silverlight (the “evil three”) were the service pack the web needed”
    Flash and Silverlight aren’t “the web”, but simply desktop stuff that runs inside a browser.
    And no, “Silverlight and Flash punched each other to death”, but simply Jobs decided that flash is shitty and doesn’t deserve to runs inside ios: http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/

  • http://ludovicurbain.blogspot.be/ Ludovic Urbain

    Actually, Silverlight never really made any inroads, so it was mostly a Microsoft demo technology of some kind.

    That being said, H5/C3/JS is still miles behind Flex / AS and that’s just sad.

    And I also can’t get that mass of noobs saying JS is so great, and creating awful things like node.js and other total nonsense.

  • http://www.riagenic.com Scott Barnes

    Not true. You all didn’t see behind the scenes between Adobe and my team around competing for Plugin Feature greatness.. we pushed Adobe quite aggressively and you had over a million+ developers pumping out Silverlight code at our best conservative guess which was shit .. every day you’d learn new data on how fast and wide Silverlight actually grew in the enterprise as well as consumer space.. fact is we had no idea what the penetration data looked like for Silverlight because how do you measure world wide developers..

    You technically can’t. Unless you start baking in metric / spyware Snowden style…

    As for Flex / AS, well yeah funny you mention that because in 2008 or around then when ECMA4 was floated as being the “JavaScript” replacement it got voted down by 7 members of that committee … a lot of reasons which I think were bullshit, but one of which was everyone was highly suspicious of Adobe’s agenda with RIA and how Firefox conveniently had “Project Tamerin” waiting… there was a lot of internal fear at Microsoft that the whole Actionscript momentum would gain a much wider audience…given well..its ECMA4 really :)

    And yes… i hate what I did to Adobe during my time at Microsoft.. i look back on those moments with deep regret..as I shot not only the industry but myself in the foot for allowing JavaScript to rise again…we could have done more.

  • http://www.riagenic.com Scott Barnes

    fuck jobs, he was the 1000th cut but there were 999 before him. Using Jobs as the influencer in HTML5 was and is a mistake to assume Google hadn’t played a role. Adobe were also quite aggressive with Flash + Arrogance which pissed a lot of ISV’s like Apple off and when the pushed the Flash should replace HTML agenda it killed the entire conversation entirely… which basically said is in the end we (Silverlight) and Adobe played our aggression levels to far… resulting in the blow back we have today.

    Nobody wants to take a technology dependency on a 3rd party like Microsoft, Adobe, Google, Apple etc etc ..you will always get pushback on adoption if your a large corporation who has a huge investment in content vs context… Google wants the web to stay descriptive because its indexable, Apple wanted plugins gone because it would fuck their entire iTunes model and Microsoft wanted what Adobe had because they needed (still do) designers to make Ux relevant which then would lead to better solutions that they can then bolt on Google business models onto (advertising, big data etc etc).

    JavaScript is just the spoils of the plugin war and we’re now entering into this bullshit API cold war where nobody wants to make a move without tricking the other into doing it first… which then leaves us with developers pumping out solutions like AngularJS. Which is to say, nothing technically tragic about that as a concept, i mean the guys did a great job technically and putting a big ugly shitty bandaid over a festering wound… but imagine what those guys could have done with a better platform spec… that’s the tragedy ..

  • Benoît Plâtre

    1. Absolutely not, Flash isn’t “simply desktop stuff that runs inside a browser”. Flash is another web platform !
    2. Jobs isn’t a messie, he can be wrong and was wrong . Apple didn’t want Flash to replace their app store as rich web application. Right Flash wasn’t very powerful at this time, but it changed (with stage3D and StageVideo, GPU accelerated).
    3. A Flash application (pure AS3 or Flex) can get its content from a CMS as an HTML website. That’s what we do with Drupal. The Flash app is navigable as an HTML website, an HTML version is behind it for SEO and mobiles. Flash can offer spectacular and strong user experience cross browsers. It allows also to not show a “please use Chrome” message for HTML5 guys who thinks it’s a huge improvement to impose a browser to its users.
    4. A Flash Application can be package as an app, thanks to AIR, which runs on IOS, Android, macOS and Windows
    5. An AS3/Flex project can rely on strong industrial compilation processes thanks to Maven to manage versioning and Continuous Integration, that’s what we do.

    So Flash is everything except a simple or gadget thing 😉

  • http://www.riagenic.com Scott Barnes

    Agreed. When Central (pre-cursor to AIR) first came out it started out as a “gadget” extension to the browser but once the developers responded back to the guys with “You know this needs to go deeper” it woke them up from the Macromedia slumber and into the “welcome to the platform story bitches”.

    Also Kevin Lynch constantly for years even dating back to 2004 kept preaching the words “Flash + Mobile” and kept rolling out every year at MAX how the mobile phone industry was ripe for the picking, how tablet devices + multimedia solutions like Flash were also ripe for the picking.

    Looking back on it, Harry Potter (Lynch) had his shit together and we all wrote it off at the time as being an “eye rolling / hand jerk motion” moment…

    And that’s probably why he’s now at Apple… doing whatever the next wave of innovation becomes. Dude was smarter than people often gave him credit for and i believe he pushed Flash into the platform space.

    I also heard a rumour that when he announced Adobe AIR’s concept initially everyone in the company was like “Oh cool, we’re working on that..so who’s the we part” and then apparently they were told “You are, didn’t you just hear…now get started…” … i dearly hope that is a true story as that would be funny and awesome.

  • Diego Guidi

    >flash is another web platform

    no bad feelings, but to me “web” is html and urls, so nothing to do with web

  • Kab Ellison

    Umm, if you think that Apple is against plugins. Try to go to trailers.apple.com without quicktime plugin.

  • Benoît Plâtre

    Flash can manage urls without any problem, as AJAX do it for HTML. As I said, Flash doesn’t mean no HTML. Flash means rich user experience with performance, accelerated 2D & 3D rendering and consistency, cross browsers, cross platforms. We do Flash websites with shared urls between html and flash. We can go directly to a link in flash by analysing the url given by our CMS (Drupal) and use the back and forward buttons of the browser of course 😉

  • Ross Masters

    Completely anecdotal – but Silverlight seems to be used most where DRM is required. It’s biggest user nowadays is probably Netflix.

  • http://ludovicurbain.blogspot.be/ Ludovic Urbain

    lol Scott. LOL. come back to the real world, most people don’t even have silverlight installed, and Silverlight may have represented 1% of the websites that used Flash. wake up dude. It may have been technically great or anything. Silverlight was well pushed by Microsoft, it still never made any serious inroads.

  • http://ludovicurbain.blogspot.be/ Ludovic Urbain

    For who Microsoft probably developed everything for free, just to have one showcase startup using their technology. It’s like AWS or CUDA or just about any technology, at some point you have to provide a lot of free consulting to get anyone to try your product.

  • fanboyed

    I have made the following statement back in 2000 while teaching a web course: “It doesn’t matter if you use VBScript or JavaScript, they’re very similar, and you’ll mainly be accessing the DOM”. Boy, did I make a stupid mistake! And I’ve even knew Lisp/Scheme/Functional Programming fairly well back then, and didn’t make the connection. JavaScript is more akin to Scheme then Java (you might see this as a disadvantage…). But here i’m threading on Douglass Crockford territory :-) check his stuff, seriously. All of it!

    And if that doesn’t convince you, you can always use Java(GWT)/C#(ScriptSharp)/Dart/million other compilers to JS.

    Now, you also mention Silverlight adoption was growing like crazy. Listen, what come from the JS community in a day trumps what came from the Silverlight community in its lifetime.

    Community, that’s what you’re missing as the biggest/most important thingy of our time.

  • Liviu

    I tell everybody that JavasScript is the king in the “Emperor’s clothes”. And yes most people say it’s to late to change anything, even Microsoft climbed the Javascript wagon, perpetuating the same crap. I personally think that the change may come only from people deeply frustrated like you, ( and me ). Google did not change the web with Dart. People advocate Javascript client apps, and they forget that decimal data type is not available and arithmetic is broken in Js. EcmaScript 4 proposed decimal datatype but in EcmaScript 5 it got slashed…

  • Someone

    In a talk awhile ago facebook employees said that facebook was accessed by 2500 different devices, who ever thinks javascript was going way is not very smart.

  • Someone

    Facebook emplyees said that facebook is accessed by 2500 different devices, whoever thinks javascript is going away is very wrong.

  • black boulez

    Silverlight was a great success in the enterprise world, not so much with the general public. But my problem is not Silverlight, it’s really Microsoft destroying ES4 for stupid reasons. If ES4 would have been a success , nobody would be complaining about how javascript sucks , because ES4 did not suck. The blame is entirely on Yahoo and Microsoft,now we have to suffer the consequences of their stupid decision.

  • David Grenier

    Spot on on the complaints side… not reading much solutions though. For now I’m content there are ML-languages compilers targeting JS as an IL (at compile time rather than, as suggested, run-time).

  • http://www.sholo.net/ scottt732

    The reason that Flash and Silverlight are dead isn’t that they punched each other to death, it’s because as Apple decided not to allow Flash on iOS. Adobe couldn’t keep up with security, performance, and stability issues on 5 different platforms as mobile devices exploded onto the scene and Apple was threatened by the possibility that they could. Why was there never a Silverlight solution for Android or iOS? Because the corporate interests of Microsoft, Google, and Apple aren’t the same. Silverlight on iOS looks bad for MS and it is bad for Apple. If you don’t need a Mac to develop iOS apps, Apple isn’t selling as many Macs. MS couldn’t just ‘get behind’ the rise of iPhones and Androids. They’re competing in this space.

    The reason Javascript is king is because it is supported on every browser and every mobile device that anyone would have any interest in using. ECMAScript 6 is controlled by a slow moving committee because it’s got constituents from all of these companies. They have to agree in order to move forward. For examples of why this is a good thing, look at the proprietary ‘extensions’ to HTML that Microsoft was unilaterally doing in the Netscape era. Javascript isn’t perfect… but it’s everywhere, and it’s not controlled by any particular company that needs to balance their own corporate interests against those of users and developers.

    If you want another language, feel free to roll your own and try and get it adopted by every major browser developer and mobile device manufacturer. Meanwhile, I think everyone will be moving forward with what we’ve got. Adoption and universal support are two very good reasons for TypeScript and CoffeeScript to compile to Javascript and for Less and Sass compile to CSS. When HTML and Javascript get to the point where everything you could do in Flash or Silverlight can be done in HTML and Javascript, Flash and Silverlight will be dead and nobody will care… except the developers who decided to keep swimming against the currents. It will take time, but every time a new device comes out without Flash support, there’s one more nail in the coffin.

  • joesmo

    You write this as if this was somehow under your (or Microsoft’s) control. Considering that Silverlight is still not fully compatible with Linux, I can comfortably say you were never in any position to replace either Flash or JS. And yes, DRM matters when the only application using your technology is Netflix. JS may be far from perfect, but a system that works on a very limited set of operating systems is not one that’s even considered a generic platform for development.

  • joesmo

    Outside of Netflix, I can’t think of any Silverlight application I’ve ever seen, let alone used.

  • http://www.riagenic.com Scott Barnes

    No doubt, we used to joke that once we win 5% of the market by beating Flash we’d have to take on the rest (95%) which was AJAX a the time.

    That being said inside the .NET community which at the time had its best guestimate of around 10million it was growing quite widely and anything that Microsoft produces can take up to 3 years to seed an audience with and typically does provided you’re aggressive at it (your evangelism program is attacking academia for one, you’re enterprise engagement models focus on sweat spots like LOB or “Dashboards” – in fact today if you use any Dundas dashboards which quite a lot of Enterprise companies do, you’re still using Silverlight in some capacity).

    Point is – wake the fuck up everyone and its not about Silverlight being the best or not…its about what it represented which is more important topic.

  • http://www.riagenic.com Scott Barnes

    *rolls eyes* people use Apple for way to much of their throne making bias. Steve Jobs didn’t kill Flash it killed itself long before he turned up… he just pointed out publicly where the body was buried. Flash had huge issues with its ActionScript 2 and ActionScript 3 migration patterns given they were throwing a lot of non-programmer mindset(s) (aka designers) into the deep end around its changes without much of a transition program to match. When they did pop their heads up around why the designers should move, Adobe Flex was the response.

    Silverlight on iOS was actually not a Microsoft issue, we pushed aggressively for Apple to allow it specifically when it came to Video playback (smooth streaming). That’s why you saw the Quicktime + Smooth Streaming release but hey, why the fuck let facts get in the way of that Apple circle jerk moment.

    So the rationale = “It works on every browser” is your answer to why we sit in this quagmire of shit. It should work on every browser because its had fucking 15years to wait for the browsers to agree on it… and even then we are still arguing over CSS/HTML adjustments per browser which requires IF/ELSE statements in JavaScript – especially now with devices…

    Just so we are clear – your argument fell down when you said “JavaScript isn’t perfect..but..” ..which is like saying “I’m not racist..but…” pretty much anything that follows that is just a race to the bottom.

    As for moving forward with another language.. here’s the stupidest thing of all.. you’re actually not moving at all hence the point.

    I feel like that guy screaming at Fox News channel yelling “HOW IS THIS NEWS”… and you’re that clown in the audience nodding going “You know, that was a fair balanced approach to that story…”

  • http://www.riagenic.com Scott Barnes

    Microsoft right now would endorse Pig Latin with Nazi sign language if it meant winning some much needed developer hearts & minds… so in reality, all they are doing is sitting on the sidelines trying to solicit the developers to firstly use their tooling and secondly please please please reconsider adopting our Cloud/Server platform(s) for your node.js blog through to your big data context visualisation line of business dashboard concoction of whatever the hell you used to make it with moment :)

  • http://www.riagenic.com Scott Barnes

    and why would they? .. in 2009 that product got a bullet in its head.. i spent a year telling everyone “yeah, its dead…” and even then it took a while for people to respond “hey that crazy aussie dude is starting to make sense now”

    there are some outlier solutions that use it, I keep stumbling into the product and quietly groan when I see it.. as if to say .. “I coulda been a contender coach…” :)

    I find Silverlight’s usage even today prolific in Dashboard / LOB solutions behind the firewall… its likely though these are legacy solutions now slowly decaying with age.

  • http://www.riagenic.com Scott Barnes

    Agreed but thats not the point .. mediocrity will always thrive in the hands of ignorance … the point at hand is.. why the fuck can’t it go away and moreover when is anyone going to take a step forward? pandering to devices today right now is a 100% reactive decision given Microsoft, Adobe, Google and Apple really didn’t provide a program of works around how to engage developers with a strategy that doesn’t involve the words “locked in..”

    This is what happens when you let the community decide by committee meetings… you have this ass backward solutions that suck the very life out of experience because everyones so preoccupied with a breadth deployment strategy thus giving up depth engagement…

    To really hammer home the final nail in that Facebook argument coffin… remember Facebook pulled out of the HTML5/JS approach to their app because it sucked to code and had shitty perf…they went native… and that son is how JS got it’s Facebook spanking.

  • http://www.riagenic.com Scott Barnes

    Not under their control? … firstly we were waiting patiently for the consent decree to sunset so we could jam Silverlight down the worlds throat via Windows Update …and a fuck we could give at the time about Linux, given its client market share it’s a rounding error on ubiquity – seriously people really need to do an audit on Linux’s actual influence which is sweet f–k all..

    Secondly, when you grow a plugin from 0 to 400million+ in under 6-9 months which at the time was more people than Facebook, Twitter and MySpace combined …you had potential to control what you wanted and how you wanted it.

    Thirdly, Silverlights engines were shut down internally waay before you guys even saw the effects publicly and there was a huge latency between it being knifed and you all starting to see it slip away. So at its peak it had momentum which is why it got killed in the first place by the Windows team – well specifically because once Silverlight unpacked onto the desktop via Out of Browser… So nobody really knows whether it could of been a contender or it could have just been the next clippy so its all speculation filled with the usual anti M$ bias which in all honesty is a stupid position to hold in the first place (and i’m a guy who’s not a big fan of my former employer).

    Again “JS may be far from perfect” the same bullshit excuse … much like “my husbands not perfect but he only beats me on Sundays and Tuesdays…” Grow a backbone

  • http://www.riagenic.com Scott Barnes

    Were you even concious when you wrote that or is that the usual mindless shit you spin at the first sign of the words “Silverlight” ..because i have no idea what the living fuck you are counteracting in the points above…

  • http://www.riagenic.com Scott Barnes

    Microsoft was 1 of 7 votes that destroyed ES4 .. Apple also said no as well.. I heard at the time the reason why it was killed off was because everyone was suspicious of Adobe’s agenda to make ActionScript the de-facto standard for vNext JS ..thus they donated Tamrin to Mozilla (Flash runtime etc).

    This is what happens when you let committee’s decide.. everyone has their own bullshit bias that creates this vortex of “Oh this is the place where good ideas go to die”

  • Someone

    Not only was going ‘native’ faster, but they could get access to users text messages at the same time, win win for facebook.

  • http://www.sholo.net/ scottt732

    Yes, Flash was dying already from 999 gunshot wounds… and then Steve Jobs delivered the kill shot by deciding that the hottest mobile phone ever made at the time, and the iPad, which was just rolling out, would not support it. I guess you can stick your head deep into your ass and call the the iPhone, iPad, and Android market shares rounding errors on ubiquity, but like it or not–this meant that your Utopian world view in which 100% of devices are going to run some cross-platform plugin so our LOB financial apps can have prettier graphics and fancy animations… was never going to happen. Hell, why not just skip the cross platform part. We’ll just get a plugin that works for everyone who isn’t using Linux, Macs, Androids, iPhones, iPads, Blackberries, etc., etc.. We can get 95% market share overnight (in the same way that msn.com became the most popular website in the world) and patch it on the first Tuesday of the month when something horrible happens.

    Smooth streaming was the most impressive thing about Silverlight. But why didn’t it take off? Because like it or not, Windows-only marketshare wasn’t going to cut it. You couldn’t anticipate or control the growth of iOS and Android. They stole a huge chunk of web traffic and you had no Silverlight solution for it. There was nothing you could do about it. So we ended up in a situation where 4 huge companies (Adobe, Apple, Google, and Microsoft) sat in their respective offices and independently came up with ways to build and patent proprietary solutions to stream video on the web. And so we end up with 4 different video formats vying for HTML5 video support with not one supported on all of the browsers and mobile devices.

    How “It works on every browser” and “Javascript isn’t perfect, but…” implies that we’re sitting in a quagmire of shit is ridiculous. Name a perfect programming language for me. Javascript has been around forever. It allows people to write shitty code that would have worked 15 years ago but hasn’t been a good idea ever since. Incidentally, so does C#. Javascript withstood the test of time and it’s growth in the past 5 years has been explosive. If you want to treat it as an interpreted language and write shitty Javascript, you can. If you want to have type safety and compile-time error checking, you can write Dart, CoffeeScript, TypeScript, or even C#, compile it to JS, close your eyes and pretend that those languages are native to the browsers. Oh.. but those damn disparity issues. If only someone would come up with some libraries that could help address those concerns (jQuery, modernizr, yepnope, etc., etc.). What’s the problem with this? There are too many options. It’s hard to decide. I guess the best course of action is to throw our hands up in the air and complain. You hate on Angular for being a decent system built on a foundation of shit. Angular does the same thing to Javascript that .NET and Silverlight did to Win32 and COM. It hides details that people don’t like to look at and adds features that make developers more productive.

    I’m perfectly happy with the current state and direction of things in web development. Would I like things to move faster? Sure. But since I’m not volunteering my free time to contribute to any of the browsers, frameworks, or libraries that I’m using free of charge, I try not to bitch and whine about it. Instead, I try to learn new technologies. But you just keep on hating. Hate Javascript, hate that browser disparity. Hate that HTML5 and EC6 are taking too long. Hate polyfills and jQuery and AngularJS. Hate that Java applets don’t run anymore and that your RealPlayer hasn’t updated in a while. Hate people who use mobile devices. I’m sure there will be plenty of Silverlight consulting work out there in 15 years. After all, even Cobol isn’t dead yet. I’m sure one day browser based plugins will be all the rage again. Why not hold your breath?

  • http://ludovicurbain.blogspot.be/ Ludovic Urbain

    whatever man, you know nobody ever used silverlight except those who were paid to do so.

  • http://ludovicurbain.blogspot.be/ Ludovic Urbain

    Actually most of the cuts were self-inflicted.
    Flash/Flex/AS always had a very poor documentation, and you would run into undocumented issues even on rather simple projects in AS3, etc.
    And Adobe was annoying with many things, trying to make money off of it, etc.

  • http://www.riagenic.com Scott Barnes

    Here we go, you lost points on the previous post(s) so now its time to introduce random out of context points that have absolutely no impact or value to the original thread – ie Android/iPhone rounding errors? that’s a dumbass assumption on your part and again you’re so deeply entrenched with your mindless trolling that you’ve not once paid attention to the point at head – JavaScript. I could give two fucks what Silverlight has to do with JavaScript aside from the fact that it as a solution to a problem kicked of a competitive fight amongst all brands.

    And you’re fucking ignorance is beyond measured when you start rambling crap about Silverlight not working on anything but Windows *stares at Moonlight* …*stares at his macbook pro with Silverlight installed* … if you stop long enough to take your mouth out of the Apple glory hole, you’ll come to realise that there is this thing called “Google” and you probably should research your points before you drop mindless troll bait like this.

    The rest was TLDR because once i read the first paragraph i couldn’t be bothered or have the energy to read yet another anti-Microsoft ass hat spewing what he/she passes as knowledge but is doing so at the speed of thought vs actually taking time to let the points themselves swirl around for a second or two to ensure the basic “research” filter kicks in.

    You go back to JavaScript and drink its koolaid like majority of the programming retards out there that keep jumping up and down with “derp derp derp I’ have a new framework to help keep me from writing actual javascript”

  • http://www.riagenic.com Scott Barnes

    Yeah its actually a marketing term called “Seeding” ..you create a product, but its still at the stage pre-early adopters so you have to then evangelise the product in order to hook early adoption. If you then do that right the early adopters become an organic amplifier of your product and eventually if you do your job right you jump the chasm.

    Every product on the planet has gone through this formula, some are better at hiding it but overall its pretty stock standard approach.

    Flash got its ubiquity because Windows baked it into the Windows Update so that’s what you’d call a “duress adoption” meaning you had no choice its there.. but..those days are long gone now so its really a lot more competitive now to replenish or start a product market-share like that.

  • http://www.riagenic.com Scott Barnes

    Lots but who gives a fuck? and being paid to do so was pretty common thing. What you think Dell decided to park Adobe AIR onto new DELL machines because they “thought it was awesome”. Did you think Google search in Enterprise happened because Enterprise thought “Hey thats a great idea”, the list goes on … again, try Google out and research Product marketing / management your ability to argue in these situations may end up taking a positive turn other than

    “Silverlight sux derp derp derp har har har” ..

  • http://ludovicurbain.blogspot.be/ Ludovic Urbain

    The thing is, you’re putting Silverlight on the same level as Flash and Java, when Silverlight was an obscure technology, and Flash/Java were both industry standards.

    And, in the real world, most of the web is not made of big corporations who get paid to use a technology.

    The vast majority of Flash and Java applets were there because Flash/Java were the right answer, Silverlight was an unwanted alternative with Microsoft colors, it simply does not compare.

  • http://ludovicurbain.blogspot.be/ Ludovic Urbain

    Actually nobody paid anyone to use Linux. or C. or Python. or PostgreSQL.

    Interesting fact, those three technologies are the best in their respective fields.

    Seeding may be a good practice, like Microsoft giving Lumia to everyone because nobody wants it, but the fact remains that if >50% of your users are seeded users, your technology is a failure.

    Right now, Lumia is a failure and Silverlight is a failure.
    Maybe it will be different some day, but right now, both those “technologies” are irrelevant and unwanted.

    Compare that to Microsoft Windows, the best desktop OS on the planet, that sells millions of copies because it’s actually a really useful technology that people need.

  • http://ludovicurbain.blogspot.be/ Ludovic Urbain

    Actually this all happened because Facebook sucked at HTML5/JS.
    And they then proceeded to suck at Android, showing very clearly that they simply sucked at developing stuff.
    And then they improved their app a lot, and it’s still a pile of shit.

    If you’re going to go to facebook for tech advice, why not simply bang your head against the wall, I’m pretty sure the quality of ideas you’ll get that way is more likely to be better.

  • http://www.riagenic.com Scott Barnes

    How many installs of SIlverlight where in the US? Australia? China? etc.. can you answer that with fact or are you just shooting from the hip and making shit up as you go?

    As a “Product Manager” of Silverlight I could answer that and so that’s why I’d say out loud “You have no idea what the fuck your talking about” with a degree of confidence.

    Flash & Java didn;t even rank in the Enterprise, consumer sure the web embraced a Skip Intro culture but in Enterprise or behind “firewalls” it was considered an offensive solution to use either of those two.

    But anyway shoot from the hip its working for you – honestly :)

  • http://ludovicurbain.blogspot.be/ Ludovic Urbain

    Well I guess there’s no point arguing if you don’t have anything better to say.

  • joesmo

    The proliferation of Silverlight, or _any_ other technology, is never within the creator’s control. You act as if Microsoft is some sort of god that can make consumers use a technology when it didn’t even support the major OS’s.

    It is arrogant, cocky, and ignorant to pretend that by creating the technology you can force people to use it, even if you are Microsoft and can push it via Windows Update.

  • http://www.riagenic.com Scott Barnes

    *stares at Windows* ..*stares at XBOX* ..*stares at IE – yes even IE* *stares at Office* …*stares at Microsoft’s entire savings account*

    You do understand how marketing works right.. You know it can be distilled down to basically manipulation aka control. You know why cigarettes are addictive or why cars sell each year or why most people swap out their iPhones everytime a new one comes along.

    Finally *stares at Flash* …. did you ask for Flash to be installed or did you just forget it was installed during the Windows XP time of past? or even .NET ..didy ou actively ask for .NET to be installed or is just ok that it is installed?

    The thing about supply demand is once you cross the chasm of ubiquity in that you convince developers world wide that the technology or whatever the basic dependency of the day is “already in place” they in turn consider that a allowable candidate to then extend and make other things with. Point in case JavaScript… its not the best idea of the day but because it’s got ubiquity it’s now considered the candidate of the day… and you’re its puppet..being worked one String value at a time (see what I did there)

  • joesmo

    You can suggest ideas to those susceptible, but no amount of marketing will control those who are not. That’s not control. Control is getting people to do something they wouldn’t want to. Otherwise, they’re doing it of their own will. Cigarettes are a horrible example as addiction needs no marketing. Windows is a great example of both. Certain Windows versions are widely accepted while others are not. If Microsoft really had control, they’d be able to push everyone onto Windows 8. Or at least off of XP. People do what they want, that’s my point. To suggest otherwise is to ascribe a power to Microsoft or its marketing it simply doesn’t have.

    Both Flash and .NET were unfortunately quite annoying to both install initially and keep up to date. Did I ask for them to be installed? Yes, albeit quite reluctantly on the part of Flash especially. I think the big difference here between Javascript and plug-in based technologies, as the name implies, is that Javascript is inseparable from the browser, whether for good or bad. I agree that Javascript is a pretty nasty language, but that still makes it light years ahead of Flash or Silverlight for bugs and compatibility reasons alone.

  • Butler Reynolds

    The death of Silverlight almost seems like the Kennedy assassination. The official story just doesn’t quite add up.

    There was so much energy around Silverlight at one time. It seemed like just what the web needed. As a developer I never fully bought in to it because I was wary of Microsoft killing it. It was one time the hunch I pulled out of my ass was the right one.
    So, what’s up with Dart? Is Google really trying to give us a way out of the JavaScript sewer they helped push us in to?

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